Comments on: Palm Deciding How to Compensate m130 Owners (Updated)

Several days ago, it was acknowledged by Palm Inc. that the m130's screen could not display the number of colors the company had previously advertised. The m130 starts with a 12-bit screen and uses dithering to increase the number of apparent colors displayed. Palm originally believed that this allowed the m130 to display the same number of colors as a 16-bit screen, which is 65,536. Instead, Palm's system can display what it describes as 58,621 color combinations.

Spokesperson Marlene Somsak has said this was an honest mistake on Palm's part and apologized on behalf of her company for this error and an apology appears on Palm's website, though not in a prominent place.

Several news sources, including Wired and Cnet have incorrectly said that Palm isn't going to reimburse m130 customers for its error. In fact, Palm is currently trying to decide on the best way to compensate these people.

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Seems Only Fair

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 9:06:32 AM #
With all the bad publicity the Pocket PC platform has gotten lately, it seems only fair that Palm get some, too.

HP has had to put up with customers finding out that their 400 MHz iPaqs are no faster than 200 MHz ones. If that weren't enough, there's the petition trying to get them to fix all the problems with the old iPaqs.

http://www.ipaqpetition.com/

HP issued an official statement that told the thousands of people who signed this petition to be quiet and go away, there is nothing wrong with their handhelds. Stay tuned for news of the class action lawsuit.

RE: Seems Only Fair
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 4:18:35 PM #
Sorry, but you are wrong on the 400MHz issue. If you read the topic "XScale Performance" in the following
review

www.pocketpcpassion.com/iPAQ/3900/3900-1.htm

You will found out that the 400MHZ X-Scale gives you a lower fps when seeing mpeg video. So, actualy the 400MHz processor gives lower performance than the 200MHZ one. Weird, isn't it?

RE: Seems Only Fair
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/27/2002 10:57:59 PM #
Your right that it does get lower performance...But, It does use less Energy, resulting in some better battery life. Us Pocket PC users will do anything for better battery life.

Later,
Andrew


Iamchocolatemilk

Palm Photoshop Users Disappointed

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 9:19:48 AM #
Now I get it...
When I was using Photoshop on my m130 last week (attached to the optional Wacom 9" x 12" graphics tablet) I couldn't get my match print to look like the screen display.
I thought it was because my plotter was having problems with the overall media size (I was printing a billboard at 1440dpi) but now I know it was the screen.
I guess I'll just need to continue to rely on my external 22" cinema display monitor.
RE: Palm Photoshop Users Disappointed
Lock @ 8/23/2002 9:34:05 AM #
Ohhhhh.... I even changed the video board!
Thanks Palm, now I won't pass any other night without rest... ;]P

RE: Palm Photoshop Users Disappointed
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 11:36:03 AM #
Palm photoshop, where can I get that.
RE: Palm Photoshop Users Disappointed
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 11:47:35 AM #
You might try www.adobe.com

Since you are on Adobe's site, try to download After Efects for Palm, Ilustrator for Palm.

Be trying those, please make sure that your Palm is able to reach a refresh frequency of 85 Hz at 1024x768 pixels screen resolution.

Enjoy,
Dan

RE: Palm Photoshop Users Disappointed
popko @ 8/23/2002 12:44:18 PM #
Damn! I want Flash MX and 3D Studio Max R5 for Palm!

RE: Palm Photoshop Users Disappointed
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/24/2002 1:08:52 PM #
Very funny, and good point. People should have realistic expectations about the display on a Palm, and it does seem a little silly to be complaining about display quality on such a small device. But even so, when Palm advertises something as 16 bit, and people rely upon that statement when purchasing the Palm, then I think that Palm has a problem when that relied-upon statement turns out to be false. I'm not a fan of class action lawsuits, but hopefully Palm will do the right thing and provide some kind of compensation for these users.

adequate compensation

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 9:22:56 AM #
The only adequate compensation is an upgrade to a true 16 bit display as advertised or a refund for those who wish it.

Walter Mossberg of the WSJ agrees.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q10C25791

Anything less is going to result in a call to Attorney General's office for consumer fraud. For those wishing to pursue this route, be sure to print out a copy of Palm's own web pages as cached by google.com.

In this time of Enron's, Aurthor Anderson's, and Worldcom's, I sincerely hope Palm can show some integrity to do the right thing and not just be creative with their math.

RE: adequate compensation
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 9:35:46 AM #
I agree Palm should offer a full refund, mostly because it will quiet Palm's critics, the vast majority of which aren't M130 owners. I've read all 253 comments under the previous article on this and I think there were less than 5 from people saying "I have an M130 and I'm angry". All I remember is 2 and both of those are from the same person.

When Compaq offered a refund for the three iPaq models it screwed up, few people took them up on it. Probably even fewer would if Palm did the same because people who buy the cheapest color handheld available don't demand the very best.

RE: Oh so it's our fault
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 9:54:11 AM #
it's our fault to say that Palm INC. is wrong .... Palm INC. can't do no wrong ...
RE: adequate compensation
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 10:49:28 AM #
I bet a full refund for m130 owners (those who decide to go for it) will cost Palm less than it costs Sony to repair all the NR70 with broken MS ports.
RE: adequate compensation
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 11:09:50 AM #
reparing the MS port is pretty cheap actually it just a component went lose, even a person that could hold a screw driver can fix that.

Giving full refund means Palm made 0 money (lose money) out of those M130 they sold/made.

If palm offer to upgrade the 12 bit screen might cost them even more than offering a full refund.

Yeah! Mental anguish!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 11:20:30 AM #
Reminds me of the Serta commercial with F Lee Bailey and the sheep:

"Would it be safe to say you suffered mental anguish?"

"Yeah! Mental anguish!"

"I think we're talking big bucks here!"

RE: adequate compensation
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 11:20:49 AM #
Well, cost of repairing MS port on NR70 may be less than $250-$279, but in overall it will cost Sony more because I don't see that many people returning their m130 for a refund. It's a relatively low cost model, bought by folks who don't care much for number of bits on the display. They are happy their palm is working, unlike pi**ed off NR70 owners.
RE: adequate compensation
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 12:49:18 PM #
the cost of repairing the lose connection in NR Series is actually $0.00 excluding labor cost, most people could do it themselves if they are not afraid to void the warranty.

And ppl who bought the M130 are not people (remember they paid money it's not like they are begging palm for a PDA or palm donated them a PDA) who are happy that their device is working, people who buy M130 are expecting a color device not some halfass color screen with a overpriced price tag.

RE: adequate compensation
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 12:54:56 PM #
> people who buy M130 are expecting a color device not some halfass color screen
> with a overpriced price tag.

Yeah, your right. The M130 is overpriced. The Treo 90 also has a 12-bit screen. Palm should charge the same amount Handspring does. Wait, that means, Palm will have to RAISE the price of the M130 by $50!!

Get real, the M130 (12-bit or whatever) is a VERY good deal for a color PDA.

RE: adequate compensation
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 1:31:59 PM #
doesn't the Treo 90 has 16M memory and a builtin keyboard?
RE: adequate compensation
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 1:35:18 PM #
But to hear some of these comments, the screen is the only thing that matters on the entire handheld. RAM, processor, buttons, none of those things have the slightest importance compared to whther a screen has 12 or 16 bit color.

Maybe Palm should put out a handheld that has a 16-bit screen and nothing else. I'll bet the people who are freaking out about the m130's screen will snap it up. It has everything they want.

RE: adequate compensation
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 8:09:46 PM #
We DO know it has 8mb of RAM, a 33 mhz processor, and 4 buttons...what's your point?
RE: adequate compensation
useybird @ 8/23/2002 9:20:45 PM #
But if you buy a 32 MB card for the Palm you still would not even get up to $300. BTW, I've used the keyboard on a Treo 90 and , IMO, It is barely usable. Grafitti is so much better than a small POS keyboard that's hard to get to the main menu on. I prefer a mid- or full-size keyboard to a built in thumbpad.

----------------------------------------
Senioritis: The chronic inflammation of the Senior.

Dithering doesn't count

Moosecat @ 8/23/2002 9:27:06 AM #
Wow. Palm's explanation is pretty lame as far as I am concerned. Are they saying that if they COULD dither their way to 65,000 colors it would have been okay to call it a 16-bit screen?

Why not introduce similar algorithms into a 16-bit screen and call it 32-bit (or whatever can be achieved)?

And on a 160x160 screen, dithering can be noticeable -- Palm acts like it is a totally transparent thing that no user would notice.

I'm in the crowd that says the difference between 12-bit and 16-bit is not very important. But that's no excuse for getting the facts wrong and then inventing an excuse for it.

RE: Dithering doesn't count
Scott R @ 8/23/2002 10:58:41 AM #
I agree. This is exactly what I've been saying on this and other sites. If dithering is a legitimate way to deliver a color (which it isn't), then why do they limit themselves by stating that the m515 can display 65,000 colors when, through the magic of dithering, it can actually display so much more (forgive me for not doing the math)?

Fess up and call it what it is, a 12-bit screen that can display 4096 colors but which is compatible with 16-bit color applications. Anything less is, at best, an insult to their customers and, at worse, continued false advertising and a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Scott

RE: Dithering doesn't count
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 11:13:49 AM #
>>If dithering is a legitimate way to deliver a color (which it isn't), then why do they limit themselves by stating that the m515 can display 65,000 colors when, through the magic of dithering, it can actually display so much more (forgive me for not doing the math)?

I don't disagree that they dropped the ball here, but the reason they would limit the use of dithering to creating just 65,000 colors is because that is what the OS and API support - there would be no way for application to take advantage of more then 65,000 colors. I am curious to know more about how dithering works in the m130 - and at what level. The main question is, is the use of this technique noticeable to the user? If it is being employed already, why haven't reviews mentioned problems with the quality of the display (assuming that dithering is 'always on' with the m130)?

RE: Dithering doesn't count
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 11:30:33 AM #
in comparing to treo90,

one has to conclude that it is at hardware level, or a special OS written for m130 with this algorithm.

But how come the result of this great effort is so dysmal? in color gradient test, the display shows up just like treo90, instead of somewhat closer to m515. (4096, 58,621, 65,536)

The first error could be an "honest mistake", but this explanation if turns out to be bogus, will not be an "honest mistake" anymore. It's an attempt to obfuscate.

RE: Dithering doesn't count
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 11:43:20 AM #
"But how come the result of this great effort is so dysmal? in color gradient test, the display shows up just like treo90, instead of somewhat closer to m515. (4096, 58,621, 65,536)"

Because a camera isn't going to be fooled *at*all* by visual tricks which might fool the human eye to a degree. Also, the degree to which a human's eyes will be fooled will vary with each human.

RE: Dithering doesn't count
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 11:48:49 AM #
if this technique relies on individual diference. How do we suppose to check 58,621?

it could be 68,991 for some person, and 21,456 to average person. Does palm has a research data that average population visual capability will see 58,621? We are entering the gray area of phenomenology here.

in the end, wouldn't this be exactly like Palm is saying "it's 58,621 if you can't see it, it's your eye's problem"

what's next? arguing that m130 really come with angel's wing and holy aura, but you really can't see it.

RE: Dithering doesn't count
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 12:55:27 PM #
"if this technique relies on individual diference. How do we suppose to check 58,621?"

That's the maximum number of combinations that can be created with their algorithm. You can verify it by multiplying 31*61*31.

"it could be 68,991 for some person, and 21,456 to average person."

Sorry, but the maximum color combinations is going to be the same. Whether or not someone can discern a difference is the only individually dependent question.

Worse Than I Thought
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 1:57:57 PM #
This explanation makes things worse for Palm's case, not better. I thought they somehow made an honest mistake and ended up with a 12 bit screen instead of a 16 bit one. Now they are saying that they knew all along it was 12 bit, but they called it 16 bit because of dithering. Dithering does not increase the bit depth of the screen, its a normal technique used to enhance the quality of any display. The bit depth should refer to actual hardware capability. Even if their dithering algorithm had achieved 65,536 colors it would still be a 12 bit screen.

Besides, they also claim to have a 160 X 160 resolution. When you dither you use more than one pixel to achieve the new color which reduces resolution. They can't have it both ways! To me this was outright lying, not an "honest mistake".


RE: Dithering doesn't count
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/24/2002 4:31:41 AM #
Where's the FTC? This is the most blatant false advertising I've seen yet.

This class action lawsuit has merit, for once. If Palm offered full refunds immediately like HP, I'd say lawsuit is out of the question. I think Palm decided that the class action suit would cost less than doing the right thing and offer compensation for their misdeeds.

I'll never trust any claims Palm makes regarding anything they produce since they tend to get creative with their product specifications.

RE: Dithering doesn't count
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/25/2002 3:20:45 AM #
>> I'll never trust any claims Palm makes regarding anything they produce since they tend to
>> get creative with their product specifications.

while i completely agree that they have/seem to misled people with the m130 - what other instances are there of palm inc getting "creative with their product specifications"?

A little perspective please
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/25/2002 3:28:00 AM #
There has been much outrage expressed on this subject. I agree that Palm should have the book thrown at them for wilfulling misleading their consumers. However, the screen, even though only 12-bit, is still better than most of the other colour screens on the market, regardless of the specifications.

Frankly it could have been much worse - don't forget the "paperwhite" screen on the t415 which was misleading and a terrible screen to boot.

Palm Posturing

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 9:23:55 AM #
I don't know whether to cheer this on as a victory for consumers or to feel sorry for the state that Palm, Inc has gotten themselves into.

It is good to know that Palm has decided to "compensate" buyers of the m130 for their "genuine" mistake - a mistake that shouldn't happen in the first place and if it did - Palm should have immediately taken positive remedies to appease their customers and protect their brand - instead of flip-flopping like a fish out of water.

Yes, we should not be too harsh - people do make genuine mistakes but having just messed up the whole m505 cradle affair not too long ago and still etched fresh in the minds of many Palm supporters, I am amazed it took them nearly a week to come to this conclusion.

Not that they can afford it both financially nor with their reputation but why oh why? It begs us loyal Palm users to ask this question:

Who is running Palm, Inc and why isn't this person asked to leave? How long more can Palm survive mistakes that are made again and again, even if it was genuine.

RE: Palm Posturing
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/24/2002 4:18:38 AM #
It does look like Palm was desperate to sell their P.O.S. m125 by using deceiving infomation and outright falsehoods. I HATE dealing with companies that use deceptive phrasing to falsify product claims through consumer IGNORANCE and CONFUSION. Just because you can rip off people without them knowing it doesn not make it right. 65,000 colors through dithering is an attemt at making the consumer THINK they are getting the same thing as the Clie, Prism, or m515 when in fact they are getting 12-bit passive screen crap. if you dither a 16 bit screen how many color 'combinations' could you get? Why doesn't Palm use the same method to advertise their m505 and m515? Because they don't have to LIE about those products to make the screen sound better than they are. 12 bit is 12 bit period -- none of the Palminista propaganda "looks like 16 bit...". I gues it all depends on what the word 'is' is....

Palm DESERVES to get sued for deceptive advertising practices. It's a wonder how anyone could defend this pathetic behaviour.

Big Deal

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 9:34:44 AM #
Big deal. So users got short 3K colors. I don't see how it would have kept one user from purchasing the m130 because it only has 58K colors.
RE: Big Deal
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 10:11:50 AM #
They don't get shorted 3k colors. They get shorted around 61k. That is a big deal, because dithering sucks.

Thomas Wilburn

RE: Big Deal
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 11:21:01 AM #
>>They don't get shorted 3k colors. They get shorted around 61k. That is a big deal, because dithering sucks.

So dithering 'sucks'? No reviewers or users had complained that the technique caused the display to look bad. My only question is - does dithering actually make it appear as though there are extra colors? If so - why should i care?

RE: Big Deal
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 11:45:24 AM #
A picture of sexy naked skin would looks like a blotchy zebra instead. all clear now? :-)
RE: Big Deal
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 12:03:36 PM #
>> Big deal. So users got short 3K colors. I don't see how it would have kept one user from purchasing the m130 because it only has 58K colors.


Its dishonest, and consumers were duped. Consider dithering a very poor color "emmulation." If this is the case, consumers should be TOLD the color is emmulated, as opposed to advertising the product as something with a much higher-quality screen, such as the 515. Its nearly bait-and-switch.

A similar situation would be what AMD has done with their chip-speed specification. Their chips run at a lower clock-cycle than the Intel chips, so they came out with their own rating system that puts it more on par with the Intel chips. The good thing is that they advertise the "simulated" clock-speed, while still telling the consumer the ACTUAL clock-rate. To have done otherwise would have been dishonest, and would open the doors for companies to slap whatever speed sticker they want on their products. As a whole, this could have been very BAD for consumers, because we wouldn't know what we were buying. Fortunately, AMD took the high-road (mostly).

If you're willing to let companies get away with misrepresentations such as with the m130, then perhaps you should request some vaseline the next time you buy your PDA, because several "specifications" will be inaccurate, for sure.

Be a responsible consumer and hold companies accountable for misrepresentations such as these.

RE: Big Deal
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 1:25:01 PM #
Yeah, it is going to make a difference with your pictures. Load up a photo album on an M515 and an M130 and you'll see the difference right away.

Let me rephrase my earlier statement: dithering ESPECIALLY sucks on a Palm m-series, because the display is low-res enough for it to be really, really obvious. Not good stuff.

Thomas Wilburn

RE: Big Deal
useybird @ 8/23/2002 9:32:05 PM #
what's the vaseline for?

----------------------------------------
Senioritis: The chronic inflammation of the Senior.
RE: Big Deal
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/26/2002 3:20:10 PM #
I agree with original post. I've got ten of these things and it doesn't make a gnat's eyelash difference to me how many colors it displays. The color makes it a lot more legible than a normal lcd screen, and that's quite good enough. The fact that so many people are having a cow about this is just so typical. Now a lawsuit! Doesn't anyone have something better to do? Geez, get a life, people.

The Vicious Cycle Called Consumerism

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 9:38:53 AM #
The trouble companies like HP and Palm getting messed up with their products is becuase these companies are greedy. Greedy not because they want to make huge profits only but the greed that Wall Street and the stock market punters have expected of them.

They invest less in carefully researching their R&D. Yes, they probably spend more now but it is about getting the product out the door and into the market without fully testing it. As a product lifecycle gets shorter and shorter, companies are pressured to spend more developing the latest and greatest to satisfy the consumer. And we want it cheap, good and now. But, ultimately no companies should take that for granted.

Some of these companies deserve the class-action lawsuits and it is great that in America you have this avenue to pursue. Perhaps it's time we let them know selling lemons is not alright.

RE: The Vicious Cycle Called Consumerism
higgy @ 8/23/2002 9:58:42 AM #
This is the first complaint I heard saying Palm's R&D cycle is too short. Any one who buys a Palm because it has 16 bit colors has the eyes of an eagle. Imagine all of the women at bars who are no longer turned on by guys showing off their M130.
Maybe socialism would be better.
Any thing that will line the pockets of lawyers gets my vote!
Give some free software to the M130 owners who bought the device because they needed to see 16bit colors.

Higgy

RE: The Vicious Cycle Called Consumerism
zigzago @ 8/23/2002 10:28:24 AM #
I don't own a M130 but I think Palm should send me $50 because I'm shocked, shocked at this outrage.

RE: The Vicious Cycle Called Consumerism
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 12:11:15 PM #
Put me down for $50 as well. I'm looking at my 505, wondering if it is really 16 bit. Rumor has it that when it doesn't hot sync, it actually turns into a 12 bit unit, and it's memory stick socket breaks.
RE: The Vicious Cycle Called Consumerism
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 2:54:10 PM #
That's funny, I have the same problem with the m505 I was thinking about buying. I think Sony owes me $50 for not making the memory stick compatible with my Palm, and Palm owes me $50 for not making my Palm compatible with the memory stick. HandEra owes me something for doing something, I just haven't figured it out yet. The government, on the other hand, owes me a complete refund for the contemplated purchase of a Palm, memory sticks, etc., since they refuse to protect me from myself. ;-)

What I think

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 10:07:25 AM #
Personally, I believe that anyone who bought an m130 from a retail store deserved what they bought.

10 seconds after seeing the m130 turned on, I didnít believe the display was 16-bit, or even worth looking at for an additional 10 seconds for that matter.

Iím not trashing the m130 for no reason, I am sure it is a fine device if you can adjust to that type of display. I cannot. If I had a friend on a tight budget that needed a color Palm, I would probably send him to look at it.

All I am saying is that users had a chance to see the display before you bought it. You bought it because it was a cheap color PalmOS Device. All 16-bit color applications run on it, there is no reduced value from the time you first saw it to now. The display sucks. Thatís not news.

RE: What I think
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 10:26:24 AM #
But it's not the consumer's fault for not noticing the 12-bit and 16-bit difference.
I'm sure that not everyone is a hawk like you, visually sharp enough to see 12-bit vs. 16-bit.

The issue is that Palm failed to deliver a product as advertised, therefore equals deception.

RE: What I think
cbulock @ 8/23/2002 1:18:27 PM #
Sorry, but if you went into a store to try out the m130, unless you brought another Palm and installed 16-bit capable programs to the m130, you wouldn't be able to test the screen. All of the built-in programs use little color.

RE: What I think
rmcalister @ 8/23/2002 7:14:51 PM #
Wow! Your vision must be incredible! I hope you don't own a 505. The backlight is so dim in comparison with the 130 that you probably think it has an 8-bit display.

What a stupid comment. There's no way to see the difference without an image that is supposed to have 65536 colors to display an a 16-bit display to compare it to.

My wife's M130 display looks the same as my Treo 270 except the 270 is a bit brighter and less blue. I noticed it when I beamed some photos from the Handspring Photo Album. Not a big deal for her and not a big deal for me. The screen is not a color-matching output device. It's on a PDA! Good grief...

RE: What I think
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/24/2002 4:42:28 AM #
I understand now why Palm would try this false advertising trick... I works with their customers! Even when they find out they rationalize the fact that, while lied to, it doesn't really matter because I'm stupid enough not to get offended by it. A used car salesman's dream come true!

The explanation is too ...

peter167 @ 8/23/2002 10:19:15 AM #
Does Palm think that we will believe what he said?

Ask him to be quiet and make an apology and then reimburse the m130 owners will real cash, not something coupons/credits @ Palm store or buying another Palm unit.

Start acting like a man before someone force you to do so.

******************
Lie is the future.

RE: The explanation is too ...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 10:45:00 AM #
Hi All,

I know Shawn, he is a good guy. I read his explanation and it sounds right, and if he is willing to put his name on this explanation then I am willing to believe it.

What happened is not good, but it would not even make a list of the top 100 corporate sins in the last 12 months.

We should remember something too, if Palm were to rememburse everyone for their m130's they may run the risk of going out of business. I don't know how many of these m130's they sold, but if it is a lot this could be an issue. I don't think any of us want to see this company go belly-up.

RE: The explanation is too ...
peter167 @ 8/23/2002 11:55:01 AM #
IF Palm would like to ask for our sympathy, that is acceptable. But what about the unfortunate m130 owners?

This is a small sin compared to Enron. But what's the difference between a small one and a big one? HP issued a refund back then, and Palm should follow. People who bought m130 and would like to give sympathy to Palm's situation should not return their units. But others deserve a right to refund these units because they are not the units as claimed and advertised. It would be immoral for Palm not to start the refund policy and the Palm loyalty image will seriously be damaged. Palm should have done it, because they will and soon FTC will begin probing Palm unless they start a refund policy. Palm would lose all its customers if it one-sidedly decides not to reimburse in an appropriate way.

******************
Lie is the future.

Bye Palm
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 12:08:47 PM #
I dont know about you, but I would love to see Palm out the door. Their PDA's are horrible with invention and creativity, and for buisnesses, they dont do the trick either. If you want a buisness PDA, just get a high res sony, to look at your excel WS on the bus.
You DONT need a Palm. Damn marketing tricks.
RE: The explanation is too ...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 12:10:53 PM #
Inmoral! hah!
Dithering is fine, 4k colors under dithering is good enough for the cheapos who bought this dumb unit.
RE: The explanation is too ...
cyruski @ 8/23/2002 2:44:08 PM #
> for the cheapos who bought this dumb unit.

well, I wouldn't want to comment on the dumbness of m130, but there is a thing which is evident without discussion: your stupidity.

RE: The explanation is too ...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 8:32:19 PM #
god you people are idiots. A whole 3k off in colours...big woop.. whos gonna notice it unless they are viewing pictures ? Almost no one. Palm admitted their mistake. Which is good. And as for the idiot up a few replies. Palms units are studier than most of the other clones. I've dropped my m505 a million times . Even down a flight of stairs once.. It barely had a scratch on it..
RE: The explanation is too ...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 9:39:08 PM #
The solution is simple. Palm offers to buy back all m130's from unsatisfied customers. If those of you are right that Palm's magic number massaging 58k colors isn't much different from 65k then most people will choose to keep their m130. If not, they lose a bunch of money.

Now it's even worse...it's a COVER-UP!!

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 10:30:27 AM #
Well if what that dude said about the m130 is true, then wouldn't that place Palm in an even more unfoavorable light?

It's an "honest mistake" if Palm just F-up and not know that the screen can't display 16-bit color. Well, that's ok...and even forgivable. After all companies do make honest mistakes.

But with this explanation, Palm KNEW that the m130 STN screen cannot display 16-bit color. So they tried to make it to "appear" to display 16-bit by dithering and frame-rate control which they could not do. However, they still market the 12-bit screen as 16-bit screen, unlike Handspring who use the same STN screen on their color Treo model, but they stuck to the true capacity of the screen and advertised as 12-bit.

Therefore, in essence, this is a COVER-UP by Palm, which is much worse than an "honest mistake". A cover-up suggest a knowning deception of the public.

I'm glad that the hardware division wouldn't be using the "Palm" name, "Palm" is too good for this crappy company.

Don't Be Silly
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 10:42:30 AM #
Your entire argument comes down to one statement: "Dithering doesn't count" That's a matter of opinion, not fact. For me, the fact that the m130 can run applications that say "Works only on 16-bit screens" is good enough. That means it supports 16-bit. But that's my opinion.

How can it be a cover up by Palm when the explanation of how the m130's screen works that you just read is coming from one of Palm's engineers?

RE: Now it's even worse...it's a COVER-UP!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 10:49:40 AM #
If read carefully, you'll notice Palm never apologized for the 12 bit display. They apologized that the number of color combinations created by dithering is not as many as they thought. So obviously Palm knew all along the display is only 12 bits.
RE: Now it's even worse...it's a COVER-UP!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 10:57:28 AM #
No, what Palm knew all along is that the m130 could display 65,536 colors. Turns out they made a mistake and that number is 58,621. You may disapprove Palm's use of dithering to reach that number but that's just your opinion.
RE: Now it's even worse...it's a COVER-UP!!
Altema @ 8/23/2002 11:29:28 AM #
"You may disapprove Palm's use of dithering to reach that number but that's just your opinion."

I agree. If it runs 16 bit, and looks like 16 bit, it is 16 bit in the eyes of the typical consumer.

If they had the math correct and the number came out right, would we start a gripe session because we question the technological methods? Yeah, well, probably.

And it would be because any flaw in any device or its company is absolutely fatal and unforgivable... unless it happens to be the one WE own.

RE: Now it's even worse...it's a COVER-UP!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 12:04:54 PM #
So what if its a cover up. The m130 is the all time cheapest color divice. The only reason you would buy it would be to upgrade your m125. Its a throw away you cant blame them for a tiney screan that is only missing about 5 colors. No human would notice the difforence of a 12 and 16 bit screan.

Any way, why argue over this, we are starting to sould like some lowlife geek. If you dont own an m130, just sit back, relax, and wait for the OS 5 divices, than we can argue about something that is actualy interesting.

Realy, the m130 was practicly nothing from the start. so what, it lost a few colors. The dithering makes it look good enough. All it had was 8 megs, 33mhz, an expantion slot, a small screen, and crumy form factor. If you braut it, the only reason was that it was cheep. Inexpensive. Yes thats write you were being cheap. The only one who would buy one would be a 5 year old low botten end user just trying out palms.

In conclusion, like I said, if you didn't get an m130, stopp arguing because you shouldn't care and you are not involved any way.

RE: Now it's even worse...it's a COVER-UP!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 12:17:58 PM #
The principle is the concerning issue not the lost colors. If you purchase an item is touted to be something that it is not, it is fraud. Palm, through clever wording has tried to commit fraud. If I purchased a CD-rom drive that was advertised at a certain speed at it turns out to be 11% slower, and the company new it, than they have committed fraud. Even if the company writes a new driver to trick me into thinking it is faster, it is still fraud. Don't you that the word games are deceptive?
RE: Now it's even worse...it's a COVER-UP!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 12:30:03 PM #
The greater the reaction against Palm and this type of crap, the less likely they are to try it again. If we let palm now we don't like deceptive marketing, maybe they'll stop.
RE: Now it's even worse...it's a COVER-UP!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 12:47:19 PM #
Did Palm ever advertise this unit as "16-bit," using that exact term? Or did they say "capable of displaying 65,000 colors" and we all assumed that meant 16-bit? Or did they say "supports 16-bit applications" which is entirely true and they owe their customers nothing? This makes all the difference in a court of law.

If Palm never said 16-bit, then they can claim this as an honest mistake. It's clear to everyone here that they knew from the start it wasn't a 16-bit screen. But they may have honestly thought that the display could create all 65,000 colors, instead of the 51,000+ that it actually could. At least to the human eye. In that case, the advertising was false, but not intentionally false.

Whether or not dithering is true color is definitely debatable. A company who is dedicated to high ethics would go the high road and simply call the screen 12-bit and live with the negative press that it generated (as Handspring did with the Treo). But most companies would rather walk that fine line just above what they can get away with. Especially when times are tough. If that bothers you as a consumer, you need to stop buying products from those companies. If not, then continue as you were.

Someone mentioned AMD, claiming that their speed indexes were misleading. I find this laughable at best, considering that there are no bigger lies in the computer world than those referring to clock speed touted by Intel. "The Pentium 4 will help you surf the internet faster." Sure it will. I'm sure that 2.2 GHz Dell is just flying by on that dial-up connection. Have you seen those Intel commercials? There's barely a hint of truth in them. But they're not exactly lying either, so they get away with it.

All AMD is trying to do is get the truth out to light, that clock frequency isn't the only factor in a computer's speed. It's not even close to the most important factor. What's wrong with that? Intel will be doing the same thing, once it finally ditches the way over-jury-rigged Pentium 4 in favor of the Itanium.

RE: Now it's even worse...it's a COVER-UP!!
ahecht @ 8/23/2002 1:17:14 PM #
But CD-ROM manufacturers do lie about speed. A 52x CD drive can only read at 52x at the very outer edge of the CD -- and very very few CDs actually have data there. There is an excuse for this, since a CD drive that spun fast enough to read 52x on the inside tracks would actually shatter the CD in a number of seconds, but is still deceptive advertising.

RE: Now it's even worse...it's a COVER-UP!!
cbulock @ 8/23/2002 1:27:15 PM #
I'm not sure if the US website ever really claimed 16-bit, because now it just says "thousands of colors", but the other day, the Palm Europe website said "16-bit colour display".

RE: Now it's even worse...it's a COVER-UP!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/24/2002 4:48:00 AM #
CD makers all stick to the SAME standards when they advertise speed -- Palm is the only one to step outside the industry norm and intimate a 12 bit screen is actually a 16 bit screen.

Intel is being sued because the clock rates they advertise do not provide the amount of performance boost implied by the company -- it's well known (not to Apple users) that people tend to view MHz in a direct and proportional relationship to processing power. Intel used this misconception to appear to have the edge in speed compared to AMD.

AMD is simply trying to set the record straight. Most of their chip designations are lower than the actual performance under benchmark testing (i.e., an 1900XP Athlon is faster than a Intel Pentium IV 1.9 GHz processor). They are simply fighting common consumer misconceptions which Intel is taking advantage of.

RE: Now it's even worse...it's a COVER-UP!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/24/2002 5:17:07 AM #
To those who say that "dithering doesn't count" is a matter of opinion: Does anyone know the official definition of "16-bit"? I honestly don't know, but I was under the impression that it means that every pixel is individually capable of displaying any of 65K colors. I don't see how it kinda looking the same (and the difference is noticable) can be considered the same thing. Either a given pixel can display approx. 65,000 colors or approx. 4,000. What the software makes it look like doesn't excuse them lying about the actual specifications of the screen.
RE: Now it's even worse...it's a COVER-UP!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/24/2002 5:37:46 AM #
Yeah and white is a mix of all color, so in theory a screen that can display white = it can display infinite number of colors already, who need a 16-bit screen, all we need is a whitte screen.

Here we go again...

freegoo @ 8/23/2002 11:10:06 AM #
How about we wait to see what Palm does to compensate M130 users before rushing to judgement? Not that it seems any of you are willing to listen to logic or reason anyway. Wonder how all you Palm bashers would handle such critical analysis after making even a tiny misstep on your job?

RE: Here we go again...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 11:15:14 AM #
yeah right I am pretty sure when my professor ask me for a 10 page paper, I won't give him 10 pages of blank paper and tell him "I am sorry I made a honest mistake, it looks like a 10 page paper to me."
RE: Here we go again...
freegoo @ 8/23/2002 11:17:19 AM #
Clever, flawed as your logic is. Handing in a 10 page term paper would be the equivilant of Palm selling an empty box to their customers.

RE: Here we go again...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 11:17:54 AM #
Perhaps a better analogy would be if you turned in 9 pages of the 10 page paper but accidentally left the last page at home. An unreasonable teacher would fail you for that. A reasonable one would ask you for the 10th page and then grade the paper. Looks like many people on these boards would be unreasonable teachers.

Like freegoo said, let's wait to see what that 10th page says before we assign a grade.

RE: Here we go again...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 11:25:53 AM #
but it's more like Palm handed in a 10 page paper with one or maybe 2 blank sheets.

but Palm knew it all along that the last 2 pages never existed.

RE: Here we go again...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 11:48:13 AM #
Or maybe it's more analogous to them only providing 3 pages of real content and just BSing the other 7 pages with filler that fools the reader into thinking there's actual content there when it really doesn't say much at all. Some people make their academic (and even political) careers that way. I think the US government should refund me all of the social security taxes I've ever paid since it'll be insolvent by the time I retire.
RE: Here we go again...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 11:58:00 AM #
It is more like palm turned in a ten page paper in a font size of 24, they turned in ten pages, but with less. Just as they did this with dithering all of the colors.

Not all Palm sites have been corrected (yet).

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 11:20:15 AM #
Just look at this Belgium Palm site, where the m130 still has a 16-bits screen (or is this the special European version?!).
http://www.palm.com/be/ie/products/palmm130/

RE: Not all Palm sites have been corrected (yet).
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 12:15:35 PM #
I believe CNET's website has not been corrected yet either. Just wait. They need to solve this first.

What do you consider 'adequate' compensation?

wilco @ 8/23/2002 11:52:36 AM #
Aside from reimbursing the whole purchase price which I deem unlikely, what other mode of compensation is reasonable? Personally I do own a m130, and the colors issue had not hampered my enjoyment of my Palm, while there maybe those who needed the extra colors, I'm not one of them. But back to the topic, what do you think Palm should offer as compensation? personally, I believe a choice of free vouchers towards Software at Handango or a big discount to OS 5 devices is good enough? Any other ideas? Maybe Palm Inc. is reading....

RE: What do you consider 'adequate' compensation?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 2:34:38 PM #
I think the most likely resolution of the problem is that they will give a substabtial discount on existing 16-bit systems (the 515) when the user decides to upgrade. I see a $100-$150 price discount with trade-in on the 515 right now or within a month. That would make it possible for 130 users to get the 515 for the same price as the 130, and it would have the added side-effect of essentially clearing out the inventory of 515 just before the release of OS5 products. They'd also have a bunch of 130s to refurbish and resell or donate to take as a huge tax write off (turning a big loss into a break-even). The discount on the 515 will likely precede the actual cost reduction of the 515 to the general market by a month or two.

Don't expect a discount on anything OS5, because that next gen of hardware will either make or break the company, and they'll want to squeeze every last nickel of profit out of those.

Here's the math

Altema @ 8/23/2002 11:57:44 AM #
Here's the math:

Assuming that the only reason on earth you purchased a Palm M130 was for a 16 bit screen, you would have paid your $249.99 at the rate of $0.003814544678 per color. Adjusted for the decreased color count, the purchase price should have been $223.61.

Of course, this excludes anyone who may have been influenced by the original price, expansion capabilities, buttons, build in hardcase, break resistant screen, etc. Such features would have meant the price per color value would decrease.

RE: Here's the math
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 12:35:26 PM #
you math is ass backwards... I mean it's full of holes... but the major one: we thought the palm could display +65k colors PER PIXEL... it can only display +4k colors PER PIXEL... if you wanna do math like that then the rembersment would be $234.37. assuming you bought at $250.
RE: Here's the math
Altema @ 8/23/2002 1:21:16 PM #
No, I was going on the number of colors displayed on the screen, not the number of colors per pixel.

The rebate should be $26.37757644653 if you want to get technical.

RE: Here's the math
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 9:53:00 PM #
16-bit = 2^16 = 65535
12-bit = 2^12 = 4096

so 4096/65535 * $499.99 = $31.25

so refund should be $499.99 - $31.25 = $468.74

assuming the value of the m130 is entirely based on it's display

RE: Here's the math
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/24/2002 8:36:50 AM #
Where are you getting $499 from? The m130 cost $279 on the first day it went on sale.
RE: Here's the math
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/24/2002 4:53:22 PM #
On the other hand, a 160x160 screen only has 25k pixels, so even if it did display 65k colors, you couldn't possibly get that number of colors on the screen at one time.

Please, stop yer whining!

N473 @ 8/23/2002 2:33:03 PM #
I own an m130. I use the hell out of it. The screen is great. If you feel lied to and can not go on living then switch PDA's. I have a life.

Cheers!
N473
RE: Please, stop yer whining!
cyruski @ 8/23/2002 2:46:37 PM #
+1, totally agree.

I own an m130 happily, because for that price there is no 16-bit unit, and I wouldn't pay more for 16-bits. I am irritated by the dithering, but I don't really care.

It would be better if they told about this before.

I really wonder how many people blaming palm on this thread really own an m130.

RE: Please, stop yer whining!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 6:18:25 PM #
I have a m505 and when I pull up a color palette (in Sheet To Go) it shows 266 colors. About 30 are black and most others look lime green or yellow. I only see about 100 different colors out of the 65,000 possible.
As far as I can tell my screen is 6 to 7-bit color.
Am I upset? Not really.

My screen is dim and they came out with the m515.
Am I upset? Not really.

Palm has replaced my m505 twice and the process was really easy. They also sent me a new cradle for the static problem. They have taken care of me and thats way more important than exact # of colors to the 99% of Palm users that don't read PIC.

Palm will compensate owners somehow, and they should. It's good business, especially since most m130 owners will get the email about it and say, "Gee I didn't know my palm had a problem, looks fine to me, sure I'll take some free stuff. Thanks Palm."

RE: Please, stop yer whining!
Strider_mt2k @ 8/24/2002 6:06:06 AM #
Hey here's one from the owner of an M125!!!

It's like anything else, they screw up!
(In the M125's case the digitizer).
They will issue some kind of fix
(In the M130's case $$).

I use my PDA and it does what I ask of it.
If I don't ask as much of mine as others do of theirs, I don't care.
I don't think anyone was explicitly cheated. Palm's punishment will also come in lack of confidence in what they make and how they sell it.

I think ALL of us will make our next PDA selection much more carefully next time.

strider_mt2k@yahoo.com

TO: Palm INC Employees who post on PIC
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/24/2002 8:39:32 AM #
Is it so hard for consumers to get what's advertised !?

And Palm INC. apologists

Is it wrong for consumers to demand getting what they thought they bought !?

RE: Please, stop yer whining!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/24/2002 11:36:24 AM #
i have to totally agree with you. i have a life too.
this is ridiculous. the 130 got rave reviews when it
was first released. nobody and i mean nobody ever
mentioned that the screen looked like it was not
16 bit. i used it in compusa before i bought it and
i thought the screen looked wonderful and i STILL
feel that way even knowing what i know now.

big deal. does anybody really use all 65,000 colors.
i think not. yes, palm does owe some compensation
for false advertising but get real here. the are
bigger and better issues in this world to tackle
than the 130 displaying a few lousy less colors you
won't even notice.

guess what? the display is STILL way better than the
m515 and that is 16 bit. now there is a display that
sucks.

RE: Please, stop yer whining!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/24/2002 3:16:14 PM #
actually PIC doesnt' give too much thought of m130 screen, you can almost hear the reviewer say the screen is a 'blah'

How about this...

Mike Allwitt @ 8/23/2002 3:04:03 PM #
Plam gives all m130 owners who want it, their mony back and a 100$ dollar off coupon for the m515 (because thats what people would have bought if they'd known the m130 had a 12-bit screen) then all those people send palm back their m130's (and buy something else)

Please, I own an m505 and I bought it "knowing" about the crappy backlight, the fact that it didn't have 16mb RAM and I've had my share of USB Problems (I'm on my fourth m505) The m505 works fine for me. The m130 obviously worked fine for the poeple who bought it when they bought it. If it doesn't work fine now tough ****, why did you buy it? The handhend is no different now then when you bought it, you just know more.

Sure, give the Owners a reimbursment, but not the full price. They kept it, they used it, the only reason they want the money back is because they learned something not because it is now less useful. If they insist, charge them $100 bucks and exchange them their m130 for an m515. That way they get their 16-bit screen.

Grow up. If you weren't satisfied with it, why did you buy it?

right on
quacksalve @ 8/23/2002 6:38:28 PM #
I have an m130. I'd love some sort of upgrade program to the m515. I like my Palm and don't think I'm going to want/need the OS5/Sony capabilities such as mp3 players and the like. I might have waited to be able to afford the m515 instead of buying the m130 if I'd know the screen difference was that great, but I can't swear to it. I'd be really torn about doing the right thing if they offered a refund -- morally, since I like my m130 as-is, I'd feel like I should keep it. But it would be hard not to take an upgrade offer or discount and to do the right thing.

RE: How about this...
mikeliu @ 8/24/2002 2:23:55 AM #
In other news Honda reveals that V6 accords were actually equipped with V4 engines previous to what they had earlier thought. "It was an honest mistake they said, a miscommunication with the factory. But surely all the V6 accord owners test drove their cars previous to purchase right? So they knew what they were getting, they should have nothing to complain about now."

I say sure, give the Owners a reimbursment, but not the full price. They kept it, they used it, the only reason they want the money back is because they learned something not because it is now less useful. If they insist, charge them $10000 bucks and exchange them their Accord for a Lexus. That way they get their V6 engine.

Grow up Accord owners. If you weren't satisfied with it, why did you buy it?

RE: How about this...
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/25/2002 3:02:09 AM #
>> I might have waited to be able to afford the m515 instead of buying the m130 if I'd know
>> the screen difference was that great, but I can't swear to it.

Be glad you have the m130 if the screen is the deciding factor for you - the m515 screen sucks. A friend of mine has replaced his m515 3 times in the last 4 months because of screen shadowing. I have seen numerous m515s and it seems no 2 screens share the same level of quality. I have seen good ones, but my friends unit was awful - and the 2 replacement units are exactly as bad. I thought they were supposed to have fixed screen problems that existed in the m505?? Isn't that half of the reason for the m515 in the first place? His last unit was supposed to have been replaced/repaired 5 weeks ago, but Palm has done nothing. He has asked for his $$$ back and is waiting for 'approval' - what a joke. I love Palm OS and i have nothing but good things to say about PalmSource. But Palm Inc - the hardware guys - can fall into the oceanj as far as i am concerned.

Class action lawsuit!

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 3:17:48 PM #
Palm..bigger issues ahead?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 3:37:45 PM #
Palm=still not saying it's 12 bit, lawsuit is now filed.

Palm=2nd time they've been nailed on this:
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/020306/1/2kfrl.html

Are all the things they've been saying about OS 5 accurate?...we should print out the pages.

www.palmos.com/platform/os5/

Is it really 16 bit?
http://www.palmos.com/platform/os5/osdatasheet_5.html

Their top 10 is misleading with market share from almost 2 years ago...
www.palmos.com/platform/os5/topten.html

This is wrong too...
www.palmos.com/platform/os5/palmvspocket.html

RE: Palm..bigger issues ahead?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 4:11:05 PM #
>> Is it really 16 bit?

There are, right now, PalmOS devices with true 16-bits displays, so PalmOS 4 does suport 16 bit and Palm OS 5 should also do it.

RE: Palm..bigger issues ahead?
Billy Budd @ 8/23/2002 4:20:51 PM #
Please Don't Feed the Trolls.

This is just someone who is afraid of that the Palm OS will put his precious Pocket PC out of business and spreading FUD is the only way he can think of.

RE: Class action lawsuit!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/24/2002 11:33:54 PM #
ok now the article on palm vs pocket pc was completely true i should now palms are way better than ppcs
RE: Class action lawsuit!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/25/2002 2:52:07 AM #
>>Is it really 16 bit?

Palm OS is for all intents and purposes, a different company from Palm Inc, the hardware guys (they are going to make this official by spinning them into completely different companies soon). OS 5 (...and OS 4.0,4.1) ABSOLUTLEY supports 16 bit color - and there are numerous devices that utilize this feature. There is zero doubt about this. The M130 debacle came to light because dillegent users compared its color output (color test program) to other - true 16-bit - PalmOS devices. Taking this issue of Palm Inc screwing up the display of the 130 to the level of paranoia that you are proposing doesn't help anybody. For that matter, a class action suit probably doesn't help anybody but lawyer scum.

Fuzzy Math, but who cares?

OzziePalmDieHard @ 8/23/2002 9:45:04 PM #
Sure, Palm has been playing word games, and pulling a few tricks, but get over it. Ultimately, screen quality is a subjective matter, not able to be measured properly. If palm gives a refund, then there are no problems.
I bought a m130 cos it was cheap, and if i'd payed more, all i would have got was a better m505 form factor, but a crappier screen that was dim. I made my choice, and i am happy.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
13yrs Old, Flat Broke
Odds of ever affording a palm without resorting to crime: 1765:1

RE: Fuzzy Math, but who cares?
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 11:14:34 PM #
>>Ultimately, screen quality is a subjective matter, not able to be measured properly

Hey kiddo--

You *can* measure the colors. Palm lied AGAIN, and now they're in big trouble.

Did somebody get lucky....
orb2069 @ 8/25/2002 1:24:44 AM #
> I bought a m130 cos it was cheap
...
> 13yrs Old, Flat Broke
> Odds of ever affording a palm without resorting to crime: 1765:1

...Or did you mug somebody for their M130? :) Congrats!

Again!

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/23/2002 10:23:06 PM #

Super. Here's my plan...

Strider_mt2k @ 8/24/2002 5:49:45 AM #
Well now the Palm/Sony feud has more ammo...

Why don't they do what Nintendo did. Cut everyone a check for 20.00 and leave it at that.

OR

Send all M130 owners a nice memory card, say 32 MB.


strider_mt2k@yahoo.com

Does this have any real importance?

robrecht @ 8/24/2002 11:03:38 AM #
Does this have any real importance? Even on top of the line personal computer screens, it seems that differing shades of colors is pretty limited regardless of the specs.

Thanks, Robrecht

Great idea! Bring in the lawyers.

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/24/2002 11:54:37 AM #
Yeah, that'll really help. I'm sure that the SLB lawyers are really concerned about all those poor M130 owners out there who can't defend themselves from the big bad Palm company. How altruistic of them. Oh, what's that you say? The lawyers will get a big fat cut of the settlement?

I am so sick of the American legal system.

RE: Great idea! Bring in the lawyers.
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/24/2002 12:27:44 PM #
I wonder if Palm made their own offer to M130 users maybe they can go around the lawyers and get this BS thrown out of court.

What usually happens with these class action cases is that the company agrees to give coupons for new merchandise and the laywers get $millions.

Palm should have been more careful with their claims about color. They can't afford to be sued like this too often and we want them to stay in business!

RE: Great idea! Bring in the lawyers.
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/24/2002 8:47:26 PM #
Yeah, the lawyers get millions and the financial loss by the company gets passed on to the customers in higher product prices. If there weren't so many lawyers, they wouldn't have to go around digging up their own business just to make money. I wish every time a lawyer lost one of these cases he and his firm had to compensate the the company for the cost of defending itself. But no, with the current system, ALL the lawyers can get rich by sueing each other. And since lawyers become the future judges, you can see just how likely any of this is going to change.

''Combinations''...

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/24/2002 2:26:34 PM #
Gettemy said, "The combination of the technologies limits the color combinations you can use without creating visual artifacts."

Palm, you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

And any engineer worth his salt could tell you that dithering creates visual artifacts all by itself, regardless of whether or not it's "combined" with other "technologies".

Compensation!?

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/24/2002 6:12:03 PM #
Let's see, how did m505 owners get compensated for the dim and disappointing screen display on those models? Oh yeah, by having Palm deny there was a problem and being able to spend more money after Palm fixed the problem with the m515!

Palm doesn't need to compensate anybody!

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/24/2002 6:08:57 PM #
Where has the respect for corporations gone these days? Palm doesn't owe us anything. They are tanking in the stock market, precisely because of whining idiots like all of you! Don't stop buying PALM products. They will always be superior. Loving my m130.
RE: Palm doesn't need to compensate anybody!
cyruski @ 8/25/2002 3:52:47 PM #
remember, supporting 65000+ colors is still a perfectly right statement. if you read the comments of the guy from red mercury.

i keep hoping the case will be thrown out. another happy m130 owner.

Switch now!

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/27/2002 7:52:40 AM #
Come on people! Palm deceived us with false advertisements already. Why don't you switch to a Pocket PC, like the cheap Toshiba e310, or to the Nokia 9210 communicator to show ?
RE: Switch now!
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/27/2002 8:41:06 AM #
Come on people! Compaq and HP deceived us with false advertisements already.* Why don't you switch to a Palm, like the cheap Sony T615C, or to the Handspring Treo 300 communicator to show?

* Compaq sold three different iPaq models with 12-bit screens and said they were 16-bit.
HP sold handhelds they said were 400 MHz that are no faster than 200MHz ones, and are even slower at some tasts.

All things aside

I.M. Anonymous @ 8/28/2002 11:49:58 AM #
I see a few of you think that this thing is "no big deal", "what's few colors", "where is the respect for palm". Ask yourself this question "Where is palm's respect for the consumer". We are the ones spending our hard-earned money to buy their products to keep them in business. Granted, the m130 wasn't a bank buster but the point is false advertising. Better known as no telling the truth but charging you for it anyway. I agree that nobody can see those colors anyway but what if you bought a car and they said it had A/C and when you got it home you found out you didn't have it. Well I guess since it's a $25,000 car that $300 A/C shouldn't get you upset should it. Yeah right! Buck up palm, and take it like a man. You screwed up deal with it. Make your customers happy and get on with it.

So what to fo know

I.M. Anonymous @ 9/2/2002 12:27:09 PM #
What palm is going to do with m130 owners???
I bhought my m 130 in new york byt I live in isreal.
I want palm to give me my money back !!!

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